Curse

tmakinen · Jun 10, 2008, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

1. A problem is affecting Guild Wars
2. Some people choose to ignore the problem
3. The problem is still affecting Guild Wars

That doesn't prove anything.

1. The Phantom Menace is a bad movie
2. Some people choose to ignore it
3. The Phantom Menace is still a bad movie

Since Lucas likes to revise his movies to the chagrin of his fans this comparison is particularly apt. I am contribution to this discussion by pointing out that some people have lost their perspective. The humankind won't be doomed despite the facts that Ether Renewal is overpowered or The Phantom Menace keeps sucking.

To Symeon: Please notice that I do not invoke the banned four letter acronym in this post. Also, my counter-example of DreamWind's 'proof' is equally contributing to the discussion by showing the invalidity of the proposition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

1. With the introduction of overpowered skills (pve only or whatever), especially ones that are linked to title-grinding, GW as a game has changed into something different from what it's used to be. This isn't an opinion.

2. Some people choose to ignore it.

3. The game still has changed.

Some people may like the fact that it changed, some people might not; that's opinion.

I completely agree

However, I must point out that the changes are just expansions, not replacements. You can still play Prophecies with Prophecies-only skills and get the same experience that you could three years ago. You do have choice. Or maybe the primary problem is with the community, not with the game?

Cacheelma · Jun 10, 2008, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

However, I must point out that the changes are just expansions, not replacements. You can still play Prophecies with Prophecies-only skills and get the same experience that you could three years ago. You do have choice. Or maybe the primary problem is with the community, not with the game?

Yes, because playing games without looking at the screen is much, much more fun and it's YOUR CHOICE to make it fun. People should start doing that instead of asking for more challenging content, right?

Spin it however you want, but you're still more or less saying "don't like it, don't use it" here.

And since it got edited out. Here it is again.-

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

That doesn't prove anything.

1. The Phantom Menace is a bad movie
2. Some people choose to ignore it
3. The Phantom Menace is still a bad movie

1. "The Phantom Menace is a bad movie" is an opinion. George Lucas didn't try to turn Star Wars into an Enchanted-wannabe. The quality/whatever of The Phantom Menace might be lacking for some people. That's an "opinion". It's still Star Wars.

2. Since it's an opinion, of course some people would choose to ignore it.

3. Star Wars is still Star Wars after The Phantom Menace, not an Enchanted-wannabe or Die Hard-clone.

GW has changed from what it's used to be. This is NOT an opinion.

tmakinen · Jun 10, 2008, 09:31 AM // 09:31

You are not addressing the issue. Can you, or can you not, create a Prophecies character and play it through the campaign facing the essentially same challenges that you did three years ago when the game first came out? Granted, there are some skill balance issues that may have upped the challenge a bit, especially the buffs to WoH and ER made the desert missions that much harder when they were the relatively hardest part of Prophecies to begin with. But the same experience is still available, it hasn't gone anywhere.

As I said, you might not have a problem with the game per se but with its current playerbase, and ANet's inclination to serve the wrong (from your point of view) part of it.

Lopezus · Jun 10, 2008, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

GW as a game has changed into something different from what it's used to be. This isn't an opinion.

The game has changed, now that's the fact,there are 3 campagins and 1 expansion but still there is no vaild argument that any of these changes caused mandatory switch in peoples way of playing the game and that's also the fact!

Quote:

Or maybe the primary problem is with the community, not with the game?

a logical asumption since game is the same for everyone yet many different opinions on current state of game.

Cacheelma · Jun 10, 2008, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

You are not addressing the issue. Can you, or can you not, create a Prophecies character and play it through the campaign facing the essentially same challenges that you did three years ago when the game first came out? Granted, there are some skill balance issues that may have upped the challenge a bit, especially the buffs to WoH and ER made the desert missions that much harder when they were the relatively hardest part of Prophecies to begin with. But the same experience is still available, it hasn't gone anywhere.

Because playing stupidly like how you did when you first bought the game is a smart thing to do, amiright?

Player A: Hey, why don't you go get heroes from GWEN and Nightfall and also max armor too while you're there? It helps a lot playing through Prophecies you know.

Player B: Sorry. I'm a retard and I don't know why but I don't want to make things in my life easier. Don't you know I play with only 2 fingers, one from each hand? You should try it, it's fun. I've been doing that since I was 8.

tmakinen · Jun 10, 2008, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Do you know how me and my guildmates vanquished Marga Coast? We all used henchman builds as given on wiki, no other skills than what the respective henchmen have (and most of them don't have a full bar), no secondary profession skills, absolutely no PvE skills or consumables. And it was more fun than 90% of other VQs. Are you calling us retards for making it a nice challenge instead of just lolpwnage ursan rampaging it? Or even using a relatively optimized real build?

You do have a choice. Take responsibility of your own actions, don't try to blame somebody else for them.

JR · Jun 10, 2008, 10:16 AM // 10:16

"Don't like it, don't use it" being valid or not has little bearing on this arguement.

Abusively overpowered skills or mechanics affect everyone, whether they use them or not. It's harder to get into PuGs without them, titles/prestige armor become swiftly devalued, other people will be progressing faster than you, and you will essentially be reduced to newbie status because of this.

This is not a movie, and such a comparison is silly. We share a community, and what affects one party directly will almost always affect everyone else indirectly as well.

phan · Jun 10, 2008, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

From personally knowing everyone of those people on that list, you're wrong on this point. Provide proof of these said "little" builds that these were evolved from and you would have had a point here, but you don't. Because the Builds, Guides, and Strategies these people have produced, as well as other knowledge that has been given has all come from personal expierence and testing themselves, not anyone else's testing. Their knowledge came from trial and error, and learning from their mistakes. A common thing most people can't seem to do which is why they go no where, even if it is only a game. Ok granted the 99% is a little harsh. I'll drop it down to 85% but still, name me another group of people that has given more to the community as far as learning, information on helping new players and giving them the correct advice to get them started, strategy guides on general playstyle wether it be PvE or PvP, and general knowledgable information about the game and you'll have a leg to stand on in this discussion.

But since I guarentee you that you cannot, its kind of pointless to argue against.

; 1 : i was putting an overal example

; 2 : does this mean all they did was think about Guildwars ?
Did they came up with their own places of positioning ; movement ; quarterstepping ? I'm just saying that in my opinion one can never gather so much information without spending days thinking of it which is just wrong .
Little things help ; like seeing a guy play a certain build .. it gives ideas to adjust that build or take certain parts of it.

; 3 : It wasn't ment as a discussion ; i know your right i was just giving an other point of vieuw and my opinion .
I'm not going to discuss with you ; i'm a to big dR fanboii for that =)

Cacheelma · Jun 10, 2008, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Are you calling us retards for making it a nice challenge instead of just lolpwnage ursan rampaging it? Or even using a relatively optimized real build?

Of course not. At least you're not closing your eyes while playing.

You should try it though. It's a "nice challenge" instead of what you do OR "lolpwnage ursan rampaging it" OR "relatively optimized real build".

I won't call you names, even then.

Mad King Corn · Jun 10, 2008, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Leave the PVE skills alone, you play the game the way you enjoy playing it, and the rest of us will enjoy playing it the way we like playing it. Stop trying to ruin the game for everyone else. Some of us like Ether Renewal, Ursan etc. Who in the hell gives you the right to try and take that away from us? We bought the game too. PVP has ruined GW from day one and I am grateful that Anet has given us something that has not been nerfed all to hell.

Symeon · Jun 10, 2008, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Do you know how me and my guildmates vanquished Marga Coast? We all used henchman builds as given on wiki, no other skills than what the respective henchmen have (and most of them don't have a full bar), no secondary profession skills, absolutely no PvE skills or consumables. And it was more fun than 90% of other VQs. Are you calling us retards for making it a nice challenge instead of just lolpwnage ursan rampaging it? Or even using a relatively optimized real build?

You do have a choice. Take responsibility of your own actions, don't try to blame somebody else for them.

Do you honestly think that people should crawl through areas using terrible builds to create their own challenge, while other people stomp over those areas in a tenth of the time with Ursan and get the same rewards?

The game should provide the challenge, not the players' choice of skills/builds. The game should also provide greater rewards for greater challenges.

JR · Jun 10, 2008, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad King Corn

Some of us like Ether Renewal, Ursan etc. Who in the hell gives you the right to try and take that away from us?

Some people don't like Ether Renewal or Ursan. Who in the hell gives you the right to demand overpowered skills be left untouched?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad King Corn

PVP has ruined GW from day one and I am grateful that Anet has given us something that has not been nerfed all to hell.

It's people like you who caused the divide between PvE and PvP players.

tmakinen · Jun 10, 2008, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Abusively overpowered skills or mechanics affect everyone, whether they use them or not. It's harder to get into PuGs without them

Entertaining the thought for a second that somebody who is decent at the game would actually, willingly, join a PUG then yes, that might be a problem. However, the problem is primarily with PUG mentality. Without those abominations PUGs would just use something else to decide who is going to get playtime. Of the two undesirables, ANet apparently decided that rank discrimination is less bad than profession discrimination. Rudely speaking, UB is the shortbus version of GW for scrubs, and that is something that people with larger experience should IMHO accept.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

titles/prestige armor become swiftly devalued

I thought that pretty much the only title that has some prestige left is Champion. People will always find ways to abuse the game and people who get titles/armor for admiration by general audience will certainly be disappointed. It is good enough for me when I reach Legendary Survivor with my character who has been playing the campaigns through in a normal way. That accomplishment is in no way diminished in my own eyes by others who mindlessly farm the dwarven boxing tournament after getting run there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

other people will be progressing faster than you, and you will essentially be reduced to newbie status because of this.

This one I find hard to understand in the context of GW. Unlike WoW and similar games where you must stay in the treadmill to keep on level with your buddies or quickly become a liability if you drop more than a couple of levels back in progress, in GW - once you are past the tutorial part of getting to lv20 - then whatever progress there is is strictly optional. The abusers may become richer than you, but that is not the objective of the game. They may get more titles, but as said above, PvE titles are only for personal satisfaction. Do they have more fun? That is not easy to tell.

I understand very well that people would want to see a game that is equally desirable to hardcore and casual gamers alike, and would have room for the most skilled and the worst players as well. ANet tried something along these lines, and it wasn't a complete success if not a total failure either. I am afraid that such a perfect game cannot even exist. The root problem is with the people, not with any game mechanics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Symeon

Do you honestly think that people should crawl through areas using terrible builds to create their own challenge, while other people stomp over those areas in a tenth of the time with Ursan and get the same rewards?

Oh no, they don't get the same rewards. What they get is some virtual trinkets of little consequence. We got the reward of satisfaction from a difficult challenge successfully completed

The game is what you make out of it.

JR · Jun 10, 2008, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Without those abominations PUGs would just use something else to decide who is going to get playtime. Of the two undesirables, ANet apparently decided that rank discrimination is less bad than profession discrimination.

Fair point, but were the game well designed I don't believe that would be the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Rudely speaking, UB is the shortbus version of GW for scrubs, and that is something that people with larger experience should IMHO accept.

Except it's not the short bus at all. It's the most powerful and efficient way to grind titles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

I thought that pretty much the only title that has some prestige left is Champion.

Lemming has Champ 5, there is no prestige even in that title track.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

People will always find ways to abuse the game and people who get titles/armor for admiration by general audience will certainly be disappointed. It is good enough for me when I reach Legendary Survivor with my character who has been playing the campaigns through in a normal way. That accomplishment is in no way diminished in my own eyes by others who mindlessly farm the dwarven boxing tournament after getting run there.

Then I'd say you are definately in a minority. Most 'hardcore' MMO players do so in order to show off, they play for the prestige and recognition, and don't really care about the methods used to obtain it.

To keep a happy and active player base you need rewards and visual recognition that is meaningful. Goals to aim for, both short term and long term. When something like Ursan devalues rewards in the game so drasticly it has a major negative impact, even when it doesn't effect a player such as yourself.

Mouse at Large · Jun 10, 2008, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Here's a real life story.....

Last night I was in Sifhalla looking for a group to do HM Frostmaws. After a little time I ended up in a PUG. As far as I can see there were 3 or 4 Ursans, a monk, Sabs style N/Rt and me as a fire ele...and yes, I took Ursan as well

We had a really fun time. We pulled carefully, and worked out the simple tactic where the Ursans held the aggro, and I could nuke from behind. We still found it a challenge and even wiped once. It took us about 90 mins to finish. Personally, I went Ursan twice, mainly to save my skin

At the end, in Team chat, everyone remarked that they had enjoyed the experience. Now I know that it may not be representative of everyones experience, but in my opinion, even when using some of the "imba" PvE skills, the game can still offer an enjoyable level of challenge for players.

Cacheelma · Jun 10, 2008, 11:26 AM // 11:26

My little brother has a hard time running around normal mode Old Ascalon with an overpowered build too. Does it mean the build isn't actually overpowered?

DreamWind · Jun 10, 2008, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

That doesn't prove anything.

1. The Phantom Menace is a bad movie
2. Some people choose to ignore it
3. The Phantom Menace is still a bad movie

Also, my counter-example of DreamWind's 'proof' is equally contributing to the discussion by showing the invalidity of the proposition.

It isn't contributing anything. Your counter-example is completely different than mine, doesn't work, and doesn't invalidate what I said. You should be able to see that.

The rest of your post is basically saying that this issue is not important because we have lost perspective and we have the choice to play the game. For people posting on a Guild Wars forum it should be an important issue. No its not the end of the world, but it is something that deserves discussion on a Guild Wars forum.

Your second point you are simply going back to don't like it don't use it. You could say there is no problem and make your case (however impossible), or you could say there is a problem and suggest changes.

Saying to keep things in perspective and we have the choice to leave the problem still adds nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

You are not addressing the issue. Can you, or can you not, create a Prophecies character and play it through the campaign facing the essentially same challenges that you did three years ago when the game first came out?

No, you can't. Skills have changed. Not to mention you can't play PvP facing the same challenges (which is half of balance remember). Also this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Abusively overpowered skills or mechanics affect everyone, whether they use them or not. It's harder to get into PuGs without them, titles/prestige armor become swiftly devalued, other people will be progressing faster than you, and you will essentially be reduced to newbie status because of this.

This is not a movie, and such a comparison is silly. We share a community, and what affects one party directly will almost always affect everyone else indirectly as well.

Excellent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad King Corn

Leave the PVE skills alone, you play the game the way you enjoy playing it, and the rest of us will enjoy playing it the way we like playing it. Stop trying to ruin the game for everyone else. Some of us like Ether Renewal, Ursan etc. Who in the hell gives you the right to try and take that away from us? We bought the game too. PVP has ruined GW from day one and I am grateful that Anet has given us something that has not been nerfed all to hell.

I got a good laugh. What an epic troll.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Entertaining the thought for a second that somebody who is decent at the game would actually, willingly, join a PUG then yes, that might be a problem. However, the problem is primarily with PUG mentality. Without those abominations PUGs would just use something else to decide who is going to get playtime. Of the two undesirables, ANet apparently decided that rank discrimination is less bad than profession discrimination. Rudely speaking, UB is the shortbus version of GW for scrubs, and that is something that people with larger experience should IMHO accept.

The problem is things like Ursan PROMOTE the pug mentality of today whether you use it or not. Guild Wars today is based on a grind mentality with overpowered skills to gain as many items as possible as fast as possible. It reminds me of WoW in so many ways. In your words...UB has turned a large portion of the game into the shortbus.

People with larger experience realize that the game was not originally this way and should not be this way today.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

I thought that pretty much the only title that has some prestige left is Champion.

I think titles are one of the worst things to happen to Guild Wars, but that is another discussion for another time. JRs point still stands...overpowered builds devalue everything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Unlike WoW and similar games where you must stay in the treadmill to keep on level with your buddies or quickly become a liability if you drop more than a couple of levels back in progress, in GW - once you are past the tutorial part of getting to lv20 - then whatever progress there is is strictly optional. The abusers may become richer than you, but that is not the objective of the game.

What IS the objective of the game??? The objective of the game in Prophecies was clearly defined. What is it now? I believe I know but I want your thoughts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

I understand very well that people would want to see a game that is equally desirable to hardcore and casual gamers alike, and would have room for the most skilled and the worst players as well. ANet tried something along these lines, and it wasn't a complete success if not a total failure either. I am afraid that such a perfect game cannot even exist.

Yes it can, and it does. Numerous games that are desirable to both hardcore and casual gamers exist. And both types of player are able to play the game without hating each other. Anet has FAILED at this. I think Guild Wars had the potential to do it, but not anymore. Splitting PvE and PvP didn't help in the slightest.

Yichi · Jun 10, 2008, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

...but that is not the objective of the game...

Which goes back to the root of the discussion in the first place, which was that with the addition of overpowered PvE skills, the seperate skill balancing, etc. that the original objective of the game has done a complete 180 from what it was upon the games release and the selling point Arena Net used to market the game with, which everyone seems to have wasted basically the last 25 pages trying to come up with bullshit theories to refute this point when its so blatantly clear that Ray Charles could see it...

upier · Jun 10, 2008, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

"Don't like it, don't use it" being valid or not has little bearing on this arguement.

Abusively overpowered skills or mechanics affect everyone, whether they use them or not. It's harder to get into PuGs without them, titles/prestige armor become swiftly devalued, other people will be progressing faster than you, and you will essentially be reduced to newbie status because of this.

This is not a movie, and such a comparison is silly. We share a community, and what affects one party directly will almost always affect everyone else indirectly as well.

As you can see - if it wasn't for Ursan - PvE titles would have a meaning, prestige armours would have some value and people would strive to PUG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

For all of you saying, "Don't like it, don't use it." Let me explain something, and you must understand it.

ArenaNet is a company. It is a business. People are trying to make money. How do you make money? Sales of a product. How do you sell a product? You design a product that people like. 'Don't like it?' K I WON'T BUY IT THEN.

But what makes you believe that there is more money to be made by trashing Ursan?
By removing Ursan the crutch that was added to bypass the moronic PvE development gets removed.
Veterans rejoice - because we had 3 years to get good enough to not need the crutch.
New players on the other hand - can now spend 3 years getting to the point where we are, because GW2 will be out already it doesn't make sense to invest that much time into something that is dying - thus completely removing the desire to own additional content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I can't believe "Don't like Don't use" is still coming up. I honestly can't believe it. I fear for the future of humanity.

"Don't like Dont use" has been invalidated numerous times over throughout this thread.

SIMPLIFIED INVALIDATION OF DLDU

1. A problem is affecting Guild Wars
2. Some people choose to ignore the problem
3. The problem is still affecting Guild Wars

DLDU IS garbage end of story. If you want to argue that Guild Wars doesn't HAVE a problem then you can argue that way, but saying "Don't like Don't use" does absolutely nothing for your argument and adds nothing to the thread (other than people laughing).

This:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

They've never stated it wasn't a problem. Likewise, they never stated it was.

This means that we can NOT say Ursan IS a problem. The players themselves do not have the power to state that something is a problem that would demand fixing. (Plus the issue here is that this isn't a "bug" issue - it's a ""balance" in PvE" issue!)
So to apply the DLDU argument on an issue - we first need a problem. (So that it can be ignored under DLDU).
This make anyone saying "ignore the problem" wrong.
This also makes anyone saying "don't ignore the problem" wrong.

BECAUSE THERE IS NO PROBLEM.

BUT - we can discuss this theoretically.
And considering that this is a discussion about PvE - we'd need to take the specifics of the PvE world into account:
1. the player has their own instance that they can shape to their own liking.
Whatever goes on in that instance has NO influence on other instances.
2. all achievements in PvE are strictly personal.
The players themselves decided that this is the case.

So IF a problem existed - why couldn't the players that have the desire to do so just solve the problem themselves FOR themselves?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The problem becomes when the inbalance affects other people and the entire game in general (as in people bought the game expecting none of this crap would be in it). All of the changes made to Guild Wars have largely affected how many people can play Guild Wars (particularly in PvP but also in PvE).

If something is unbalanced in PvE - that means that there MUST be a state of balance.
Define that state! A collection of simple rules that will enable EVERYONE to understand what changes would be needed for a skill that is currently "unbalanced" to become "balanced".

Otherwise - could we please refrain from using the term "balance in PvE".
Since then the term "balance in PvE" is just a pretty way of saying "I was dreaming of this pink elephant tonight and the elephant told me".

Lopezus · Jun 10, 2008, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Then I'd say you are definately in a minority. Most 'hardcore' MMO players do so in order to show off, they play for the prestige and recognition, and don't really care about the methods used to obtain it.

so it's again proof that flaw is not in game design but in peoples mentality, i said it again i see no reason why i should be affected that some players completed title,quest,challange,mission in faster or easier way.

Quote:

Do you honestly think that people should crawl through areas using terrible builds to create their own challenge, while other people stomp over those areas in a tenth of the time with Ursan and get the same rewards?

So if someone owns prophecies only should stop playing or having fun because of this ? Or someone should tell him : "give up going through campagin because people own these missions and challanges with uberskills you don't posses, so in this way your fun is ruined now, or go and buy Factions,Nightfall and EOTN so your game will be ruined by overpowered skill you will have at your disposal." Nonsense !!

And it's not the game design that decide if rewards are adequate to the challange that's what people do and very often there are very different opinions about it as well.